Feelings, thoughts and decisions

Saturday 7th December, 2013 Comments 17 comments
Posted by Roguey, Global Admin.
The first thing I want to say is; big-thanks to everyone letting me know how you feel about X-Rebirth whether via votes, or your comments. I am very glad you guys took the time to express your feelings and thoughts.

During this process it seems you guys told me that I am a kind-of community leader? I find this very strange because when I started my X2 site I had just a handful of visitors (most of them being me lol). You may of seen I have been a bit vocal recently, and probably also taking things a bit too personal. This doesnt mean I want necessary change what I wrote, or tell you something different. I am just used posting stuff that feels it gets read by a handful of people.

I guess there has been some changes in the egosoft camp with the introduction of public testing. In some ways it looked like they had already moved away from 'us' NDA testers, as on a whole we got largely ignored. So this felt a bit like a kick in the teeth (once again). I didnt really think of the positive side that now there is a army of fresh testers out there. A army of soldiers is better than a handful of tanks (to use a metaphor).

So now, we are at this point, wondering what we should/want do about things. As you seen things arent great; a community who feels hurt and bunch of developers who feel scared to post anything cos the community wants blood. I understand it takes time to heal, however I cant, not feel this isnt right. Obviously we are all space-sim fans and hence the reason we are here. I know you guys are very special fans, spending countless hours into these type of games, whether its playing, writing guides, and/or creating new content. I too have spent a lot of time developing sites, modding and playing. In the progress you guys tell me im respected, which I feel honoured to be part of! So I guess im in a unique position at the moment, being able to talk to you guys as friends.

This maybe not really my place to do this, nor maybe the best way to write it. However seeing there is no-one else who can do such a thing, it falls on me to do this.

You may wonder what as sparked such a post? well funny enough when reading some of the negative posts today - I wondered were do we want this to head? Myself ive seen the collapse of a franchise, and its not nice. I am wondering if egosoft chooses to work closer to its community now (the first step egosoft kind-of already took via public testing), will you guys be willing to forgive them? I just dont see how sticking your head in the sand is going to help out the community at all;

Please when voting be honest your own feelings - At a time like this is easy to post harshly. Please really think before voting;

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Staberind avatar
Staberind  •  3 years ago
I gritted my teeth and pressed "Yes, If they work with us", knowing that egosoft have not released a devkit for any of their games, unlike, say, Bethesda, who I also am getting ticked off with, with similar complete bollocks.
when I step back and compare what bethsoft and egosoft release though, (ok, ok, apples and oranges), beth do know that its modding, not dlc. that keeps people interested in their games.
Mauzi avatar
Mauzi  •  3 years ago
They may wish to consider getting some new blood in though. It would seem that some folks at the top are a bit out of touch.
- "desertwolf"

This for sure is correct, but sadly the company setup is all based on the ownership and sole decision making by a single person (Bernd, obviously) who also is the one who did spread the false advertising and decided everything from the what people were to work on in the past 7 years or the target platform over the game's content that you find today in XR up to not letting out any demos before release.

And it is right him (most likely after advice from a lawyer after the vaporware became obvious) who decided that there'll be no explainations to the customers or any other sort of feedback besides "fixing bugs" and "we'll see what comes once the game is stable".

Bernd's company is a "GmbH" with Bernd as sole owner/boss which is sort of an LLC with the german standard liability of a couple of thousand euros backing - and they didn't increase this amount ever, which a healthy company does to please investors. This alone tells enough already. Also, Bernd had another "ego" company in for his arcade games in the distant past.

Anyhow, it is more than obvious that all decisions were made by him, while calling them "possibly forced" is wrong since it was his decisions leading to being forced to release.

Sadly, as the above company details surely make clear, you cannot fire/replace Bernd and he surely wouldn't be able to afford professional assistance. Not that an "I am the boss" type of person could ever work with such.
thedesertwolf avatar
thedesertwolf  •  3 years ago
The best outcome we can hope from the current backlash towards the abysmal state is something that has been brought up quite a few times both between here and the egosoft forums. It's one word.


Something that can take extreme measures to get to connect inside of some individuals brains. Thankfully the backlash here was on-par with that of the war-z/survivor stories backlash albeit in regards to a company that actually supports and updates their games instead of Hammerpoint Interactive.

Again, financially, not quite certain that egosoft can survive not fixing this game which would be an unfortunate casualty. The amount of hours put into x2/3/ap earned my respect from their end for supporting their games and a good deal more towards the modding community that they had fostered during those years.

While it'd be nice to expect 'all the answers right now' I don't think that Bernd is comfortable with that sort of situation. See again antiquated priorities and a tendency among the aging to refuse to alter their views for an ever-changing world around them.

Shame too. Anyway back to 50$ paid beta-testing.
Roguey avatar
Roguey  •  3 years ago

@JoelNussbaum swapping ships was added to X-Tension (the game previous to X2). It was actually one of the main points of it. So we had the freedom to swap ships for a long time now.

as for the ship being an M6, I disagree. Its more like a M4 with no cargo-bay. I wouldnt call it a corvette ship with 1 laser point, 1 missile launcher and no turrets.

@Tigereye31890 youre not the only one, I dont know what they were doing for 7 years. I understand that writing a new engine does take time, however if they already had X3AP source code, then you would probably borrow bits from there.
Mauzi avatar
Mauzi  •  3 years ago
@Those blaming Deepsilver instead of Egosoft:

You guys are aware that Egosoft officially calls themselves their own publisher and only has Deepsilver and Kochmedie in the boat to produce/sell the physical boxes ?

I cannot remember the slightest hint that Deepsilver is involved anywhere here at all besides that. So, if you have different information please provide it - been looking for such for quite a while and didn't find anything.

Or, if such is purely a guesswork, say so. For the time being I consider Egosoft being behind all these silly decisions.
thedesertwolf avatar
thedesertwolf  •  3 years ago
The slew of assorted bizarre design choices tacked on late into the games development and the very odd way that success was dictated in sheer terms of units of the game sold speaks a great deal about the current ceo of egosoft.

There is a large portion of the older generation (People now in their 40's and 50's) who were outright brought up believing that the bottom line was the only thing that dictates success. As time has progressed we've noted that this is absolute not true nor is it even a useful gauge outside of financial stability.

This is conjecture here. What happened with X:R, may it be properly fixed some day, is a combination of that outdated belief system compounded by the game developers pulling their resources in far too many directions at once. Egosoft still only has a staff of 20 people including their CEO I think. They are tiny compared to most studios yet tend to produce nebulous games (With a huge amount of input from the community) before they become the gems that we have come to love.

TL;DR - Good at framework, need a hell of a lot of work on the context and physical structure.

They got the review bashing that they outright deserved for what happened, the outright toxic explosion from their base they deserved for the condition of the game but unlike other publishers and game development companies Egosoft I don't think can afford to not fix their game. It'd be financial death from the looks of it.

They may wish to consider getting some new blood in though. It would seem that some folks at the top are a bit out of touch.
Mauzi avatar
Mauzi  •  3 years ago
Considering how they mistreated and lied to right those fans who made them what they were before XR and how shitty XR is, along with the fact that they clearly aim at the console market in the future, I doubt that there'll be "another time".

It's not like they could ever have reached the development of X³AP with own means/ideas/skill) without those loyal fans that they cheated on, dunno what they think to believe that those will fix up their shit after all this.

Anyhow, XR's base design is as far from what X fans want to play that those X fans could as well play a different game; one that actually works and has content before XR is fixed up even.
DangerClose avatar
DangerClose  •  3 years ago
Wow. I'm glad I didn't jump on this game. Too bad the next groundbreaking game was a flop. I hope it turns out better. X3 was such a good model...
Tigereye31890 avatar
Tigereye31890  •  3 years ago
7 years for what? I've put over a hundred hours into this game and can't figure out what they spent 7 years on. Screw graphics and walking on stations, Ego give me back my space sim!
birdtable avatar
birdtable  •  3 years ago
Just fired the game up again after 1.19 ... still poor, some bugs may be fixed but the experience is just as saddening ... Has anyone noticed the music sounded better and more relevant out of the game than when your playing..... Feel sorry for the composer.
JoelNussbaum avatar
JoelNussbaum  •  3 years ago
I would have been happy with this game but three points killed it.

1) The inability to fly any other spaceship other than the skunk which was the golden ticket for X2 and beyond. I mean hell in x3 you had the freedom to personally command an orbital weapon platform if you wanted.

2) The dumming down of Capitol ships. The skunk which is a glorified m6 ship in any other game would be vaped in less than a mizura by a battleship or even a m7 class that gets the drop on it. Now, the battleships are no longer shielded and they are pathetic. I will however state that a positive was the dumming down of Missle ships which were a gamebreaker in X3 but it came at the cost of all ships.

3) You give us first person then you kick us in the nuts. Characters get stuck, certain vents you cannot access because of an invisible wall, and the stations look like piecemeal stations. Whoever designed the character models needs to be fired from gaming completely, because they look like they have been beaten by an ugly stick and are all sporting LT Ripley haircuts with the exception of pixelated boob window. I wanted to see first person boarding of enemy ships where you fight alongside your marines to take control of the ship. So much wasted potential here its actually sickening.

In conclusion, I do believe that X Rebirth is fixable, but its going to take an extremely serious effort to accomplish this. They would effectively have to take it burn it to the ground and start all over, but if anyone can salvage their game, Egosoft can. At the moment this title should be named X Betrayal.
birdtable avatar
birdtable  •  3 years ago
Egosoft never listened ..never cared .. Where would Albion Prelude be without the modders, not in existance ... Egosoft were lazy and arrogant.... I cannot think of one thing introduced by Ego alone that improved the gameplay .... They struck lucky with the original X and just sucked on that teet.......Deep Silver did not make the videos about X Rebirth and so deceive the fans of what they were buying ...Police sirens, no joystick , smoke going upwards, unable to look around, look in lockers for goodies, I could go on ..Egosoft said screw the fans we will make a cheap childish shooter for the quick fix teen audience and ended up pleasing no one,,, Even the most ardent fan of Ego has to admit it is a poor game. Yes you can fix it because it is basically just code but don't expect Bernd to fix it for the PC.....He will just continue to fix it for a Xbox one release.......Ask yourselves did this game take 7 years to develop without no one asking ..IS THIS A PC SIMULATION ???.
bachneri avatar
bachneri  •  3 years ago
I will have to agree with birdtable, fixing this would equal making a new game. well they got the engine and stuff, with lots and lots of useless features. Still it would take them ages to make it into a good game. I also doubt that mods/fans anyone could make anything good out of this, without a huge amount of work/time invested. So yeah - no more Ego products for me.
This is not the first bad decision i made - related to buying games, but it's the first i don't feel tempted to play. I admit, i still check this site, and the Change logs - but i have not loaded the game for a long time now. I'd rather play AP or any other version.
Still this community is what it is, not thanks to the game, it's thanks to the people!
now let's wait for Star Citizen and let us all hope they don't mess it up!
rhohltjr avatar
rhohltjr  •  3 years ago
@BarrenEarth: Kickstarter is fine but no gamepad crap and no 7 year development this time.
BarrenEarth avatar
BarrenEarth  •  3 years ago
Is there a poll option for "Start a KickStarter for Roguey to make a X-Knockoff that has 100x more features than Rebirth?!"
RuppertHound avatar
RuppertHound  •  3 years ago
I dont think that this is all Egosofts fault, fair enough they released a game in a really bad state and people are angry about it but in all fairness i think that the people who are angry have been burnt before.

Think of it like a girlfriend that has been cheated on before by previous boyfriends. She is always going to be paranoid and think your going to do the same thing to her and the slightest wiff of cheating and she is gone forever even if its not what it seems. (no im not saying from previous exp Smile.)

So many releases over the past year or so have been released in such a poor state that i think the trust has gone between gamers and developers. Rome 2, SimCity, Arma 3, GTA5 on ps3 im sure the list goes on.

I think the only way developers will stand a chance now is if they do alpha and beta testing publicly, do away with steam pre-orders and start earning the trust back from the community.

Im a big fan of the X Series and i have to admit Rebirth isnt what i was hoping for. That isnt exactly Egosofts fault either but i do feel let down. Will this put me off buying another game from them? No but i think im done with pre-orders and buying on the first day as clearly developers cant be trusted anymore.
Vespy avatar
Vespy  •  3 years ago
I'm not sure Egosoft was to blame in the first place.

Game design and release date decisions are taken mostly at the producer level. So if X Rebirth is crappy cause of game design and buggyness, both of those issues are the responsibility of Deep Silver, not Egosoft.

So if Egosoft is willing to work with their own crowd and fans, and can get away from Deep Silver calling the shots on the production side for a while, there might be a chance.

I think we need community leaders not only to get the game design itself back into the right direction, but also to prove to Deep Silver that Price Waterhouse Cooper, Accenture, etc market analysts and business consultants fresh out of Harvard business school and alike, who probably have never played more than 100 hours of "video games" in their entire lives, and giving their advice in producing a good game is worth just about the amount you paid them... AS A LOSS. Following their advice really brings you down.

This is my real problem with this whole ordeal. The tech that Egosoft developed is awesome at it's core, FAR ahead of X3 core tech, and that was worth 7 years, even far ahead of the data exchange technology that most complex high end financial websites use. The role of actually making a game out of this technology was Deep Silver's responsibility, NOT Egosoft's.

Once you get into the files of the game, and the XML structure they've used to describe *everything* in the X Rebirth universe, it's pretty damn genius.

I have no doubt Egosoft and it's community will turn this around.

Deep Silver is the enemy.