Tractor Beam Spitefulness

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Seygantte

Seygantte avatar
Level badge Instruguey (13)
Posted 12 years ago.

The AI is actually very well suited to the game. The biggest issue with AI when the game was being designed is that there are 1. no predefined paths, and 2. every ship needs to be done at the same time in the entire universe. Granted the latter isn't as bad for OOS as noclip is on, but still needs to be sort of accurate incase you jump into the sector. The only way to get around this without making the game require a helium cooled supercomputer was the current method.

The spatial awareness around a ship isn't a sphere but is best though of as hemispherical, and they do not take into consideration the velocities of other ships. All they do is calculate whether or not their current velocity will take them closer or farther from another object (within a certain range) irrespective of the other object's motion. That's why you can tailgate other ships and even get really close to them, so long as their direction is away from your current position regardless of either of ship's speed. Here's close quarters flying at 97m/s. Because the Hyperion (I'm in it) is behind the centre of the Cobra, the Cobra's nav system is predicting it to be moving away, allowing me to get as close as I like
Picture

However, when I engage the Turbo and zip by at 400m/s, even though in the next step I will be farther away (travelling 4x the speed) because for a brief moment my current position is in front of the Cobra the nav predicts the next step bringing it closer. Therefore is freaks out and evades, even though it's unnecessary. This is why you get the difficulties when AI navigates around asteroids with the jagged motion instead of a curve as we would do. It doesn't have a predefined path around so it goes in steps, alternating between directly to target and away from the obstruction, as the asteroid pops in and out of the evasion range. Although sometimes ungainly this is the only feasible way of managing such a large amount of objects in a changing space. Many overhauls which people suggest would yes, make the motions smoother, but would also slow the game to snails pace on anything not made by Cray. It's not perfect, as has been pointed out, but it does a good job.

Sources: the manual. There's a whole section on the AI.

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PuppyOfWar

PuppyOfWar avatar
Level badge Miltaguey (15)
Posted 12 years ago.

Come to think of it you're right about the detection zone, I can get behind a ship pretty close. However, I think my proposed solution remains valid. A spherical collision detection zone makes ships jerk away from objects they would pass just fine when it is unnecessary. The 'spatial awareness' should be an elongated paraboloid facing forward, so the AI can begin evasive maneuvers sooner the more directly an object is in its path. If not directly in the AI's path, a ship should be able to get much closer than if it is. If an elipsoid is hard to manage because its difficult to define, I would suggest a somewhat elongated cylinder, perhaps narrowing at the far end. That is definitely not harder to figure than a sphere, and will give the AI the forward bias it needs. A sphere is defined by 3 polar coordinates; a cylinder by 2 polar and 1 cartesian coordinate, so I don't see problem with implementing the math.

My other proposal is to keep track of the distance between objects so the AI knows how fast a ship is closing with an object, and have it turn away if the closing speed is greater than some proportion of that ship's current speed. Then things the ship is headed directly for, it will avoid, but things it is skimming past will have low closing speed and won't alert the AI to jerk away. The AI already determines distances between objects, so this leverages information that is already available.

I think this would even make navigating around asteroids smoother, because once a ship is on a course that would take it around the asteroid, it won't tend to keep jerking away as it skims near it. Of course, if Egosoft has simplified asteroids to point objects for collision detection, this won't work very well. The ship will think it is going to skim past, then plow right into the edge of it. In this case I'd suggest making asteroid collision avoidance a special case with different rules, like maybe a much larger collision detection zone, or perhaps they could use its clipping boundary instead of simplifying it to a point.

I don't think the AI has to figure much at all for OOS, just keep updating the position of each ship according to its course and speed. If you do jump in, as others can tell you from experience, sudden collisions between things that were fine OOS aren't a rare event, so I don't think the AI is doing any collision avoidance on OOS sectors.

Further I'd make it a 2 step system, first determining if any collision avoidance awareness is even needed, by checking if the ships are within 5 km or so of each other. Then if they are, the actual spatial awareness field can be activated. So what I'm suggesting is a 5 km spherical detection zone to determine whether to apply the cylindrical detection zone. This would also be an ideal time to determine whether to use regular or asteroid collision detection zone, when two objects in proximity have been identified.

I'm not sure I agree with you on the unfeasibility of meeting the computational requirements. The AI only has to figure collision avoidance in sector, and only for ships within say 5 km of each other. I've seen pathfinding work in other games on thousands of units simultaneously with much slower hardware than what I have now. This is with avoiding terrain, each other, and still finding a reasonably efficient path to where I sent it, as opposed to mere collision avoidance in the X games. Collision avoidance is simply turning a ship away if another ship is detected in its spatial awareness field, it is much less computation than pathfinding. So I think the problem is they haven't found an efficient way to do it.

On the other hand, if it is more computational work than simply using a hemisphere, where the AI only need determine distance and whether an object is in front of or behind the plane perpendicular to the direction of travel of the ship, perhaps it isn't worth it to use a fancier collision detection method. However, considering they've nerfed ship speeds to account for this problem, which in turn greatly affects the game, I'd say there's a good case to be made for a smarter collision detection method.

Sins of a Solar Empire is a game where there are again thousands of ships to keep track of, and they do collision avoidance on ALL of them, even the ones in another sector in the game. They do not actually collide, so clipping isn't checked, but they do avoid each other pretty well. On top of THAT they are often in combat as well. Thousands. The game will eventually slow down some at this point, but it still manages at a playable speed. So I'm unimpressed with how hard mere collision avoidance on ships near enough to consider it in a single sector should be, computationally.


helfenbein

helfenbein avatar
Level badge Skillguey (7)
Posted 12 years ago.

A bit back to the original subject... I happen to possess the small amount of money to destory my compatition with an annoyingly low yeild asteroid and a nice Ore mine M, other wise wheat farms work good too. (forgive my spellings)

Roguey

Roguey avatar
Level badge Trueguey (22)
Posted 12 years ago.

a nice Ore mine M
- helfenbein

Always use L mines, M's are just wastes of money.

Seygantte

Seygantte avatar
Level badge Instruguey (13)
Posted 12 years ago.


Always use L mines, M's are just wastes of money.
- Roguey

If he's just using it as a giant wrecking ball, L would be a waste.

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Morgund

Morgund avatar
Level badge Fightguey (6)
Posted 12 years ago.

I'm not meaning to hijack this thread, but it seemed appropriate to post here... More than happy to move this to a new post if anyone objects, but... I have a tractor beam issue...

I'm wanting to move my two Silicon Mines closer to my PHQ support complex so that I can attach them and re-appropriate my CLS ships to other things.

So I grabbed one of my mistrals and fitted the tractor beam to the rear turret, back up to the docking area of a Si mine, move to the rear turret cockpit, hit the fire button... nothing. ??

So I realized I was still ~3km away from my target and the tractor beam has a range of 2km. Ok maybe this is the problem. So I move from the docking area around to a side of the mine where I can get within 2km, back up to it, again nothing happens when I try to trigger the beam.

Does the Mistral have too little weapon energy to fire the beam?

If so, could someone suggest a better tug ship?

Thanks in advance!

Seygantte

Seygantte avatar
Level badge Instruguey (13)
Posted 12 years ago.

Hmm, strange. To be honest I've never tried towing from a turret. There isn't meant to be any difference between which weapon slot you use to tow. I use slot 1 in my main array from my Hyperion to tow, so if you have any M6s sitting around (or a TS that has a main array you can use) try using that.

As far as the turret issue goes, do you see a laser being emitted and not connecting, or does nothing happen at all? Energy use shouldn't be an issue, the tractor beam uses very little and once the link is made it uses no more.

Also, you can link to the docking port. That's where I usually tow from. It doesn't matter if you're over 3km from the centre of the mine (which is where it's measure from) so long as some the part you're aiming at is close enough.

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SMITHY77

SMITHY77 avatar
Level badge Fightguey (6)
Posted 12 years ago.

Did you have the right weapon group on?

Done that before jumping around scenes in a fight. Big gun, ready to fire aligned the sucker, erm I mean target and. . . . nothing.

Bash the wall


Morgund

Morgund avatar
Level badge Fightguey (6)
Posted 12 years ago.

As far as the turret issue goes, do you see a laser being emitted and not connecting, or does nothing happen at all? Energy use shouldnt be an issue, the tractor beam uses very little and once the link is made it uses no more.
- Seygantte

Nothing at all. Verified that all other weapons fire.

Also, you can link to the docking port. Thats where I usually tow from. It doesnt matter if youre over 3km from the centre of the mine (which is where its measure from) so long as some the part youre aiming at is close enough.
- Seygantte

Yep, tried firing at the external docking port first as it seemed to be the most obvious/logical choice.

Did you have the right weapon group on?
- SMITHY77

Will double-check this.

If that's not the case I'll try swapping the tractor beam into the main array and using another ship.

Thanks!
Morg.

Seygantte

Seygantte avatar
Level badge Instruguey (13)
Posted 12 years ago.

If the weapons group turns out to not be the problem and you still see nothing at all, then I guess tractor beams aren't working on turrets yet. If were working you would see a sort of purple tracer beam even if it doesn't have a target with which to connect. When it does connect you hear a sound and the beam goes orange, at which point you can stop firing.

Best of luck.

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Roguey

Roguey avatar
Level badge Trueguey (22)
Posted 12 years ago.

hmm... could it be energy usage? I mean tractor beams do eat quite a bit of energy to fire. A TS ship may not have enough to fire even once.

Seygantte

Seygantte avatar
Level badge Instruguey (13)
Posted 12 years ago.

hmm... could it be energy usage? I mean tractor beams do eat quite a bit of energy to fire. A TS ship may not have enough to fire even once.
- Roguey

This is a good point. It depends on the length of a tick in X3. The tractor beam uses 2000MJ/s, but if a tick is only 0.1 seconds then even a ship with a 200MJ capacitor would be able to fire, however briefly. As I said, you only need enough energy to make the initial connection.

However, in light of that comment I would suggest testing with a Split Caiman Miner. It's the only Split TS capable of mounting the tractor beam, and like other Split TSs it has over 2000MJ of charge. I'd test myself but alas I don't have one of these ships.

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Morgund

Morgund avatar
Level badge Fightguey (6)
Posted 12 years ago.

Haven't had an opportunity to test yet - will when I get home from work this evening. I vaguely remember towing the Hyperion back in the X3R plot, but cannot remember for the life of me what ship I used for that.

It took me forever to find a Tractor Beam to begin with. It seems the two things my universe shows as a deficit are Tractor Beams and Mobile Drilling Systems. I'm considering throwing up a complex producing these.

Morgund

Morgund avatar
Level badge Fightguey (6)
Posted 12 years ago.

So I fitted the tractor beam to my Skiron and it fires just fine. Towing silicon mines around is a joyous occasion!

leko

leko avatar
Level badge Stickguey (8)
Posted 11 years ago.

Hi folks,

What we know : speed in space

1.Propulsion engines today are maxed out at 17 m/s , later maybe -+ 20m/s

2.Impulse engines (nuclear) will reach about + 300 m/s , Fusion rockets up tp 30.000 m/s

3.Warp (Matter-AntiMatter) will go up to +- 2000 m/s
Antimatter exists today on earth and nearby, they know how to reproduce (huge costs) it but not yet to how to collect it (Van Allen, etc) needing little
5.Beamed Propulsion CryParabolic reflectors) Light sail, Hawking radiation, gravity (smaller back sale to decelerate)
6.Negative mass
FASTER than light :
7.Alcubierre drive (exotic matter)(bubble wormhole front/back different use)(like mini wormhole)
7.Tachyon drive, always faster then light
8.Wormholes (bended space), if found would mean faster then light (+300.000 kms) because space is "folded"
As if you could fold the road from Calais (FR) to fi Moscow (Rus) so that you only have to drive say 1 km to get from Calais to Moscow.

This list is certain to be incomplete but this is a developing science!
Not trying to explain quantum theories (contact Hawkings), just giving a scientific idea of the future

But, there should not be huge rocks in x, and much less asteroids, at our today speed, a rock (size apple) would destroy our spacecrafts in a second, they even have trouble with like grains shooting through)

And eh, 100 m/s = 360.000 km/hr ! (So, people destructing rocks at 1 m/s make me laugh : still 3.600 km/hr)

I cannot understand those rocks and asteroids in x. They complicate without necessity ! (compare homeworld 2)

Don't worry, be happy , leko

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