A question of Steam?

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Roguey

Roguey avatar
Level badge Trueguey (22)
Posted 12 years ago.

Ive been looking into why people hate Steam, and noticed a quite a few posts about it. I personally havnt used steam all that much (which maybe a good thing) as I read some pretty bad stories.

I can understand that locking an product key to an account means that game cant be resold even its a full retail box. This too forces you to use Steam (as PC users we normally have a choice) and require an internet connection.

Another thing I didnt like in the T&C's that it said that you dont own the game, just are allowed to play it. So this means if they decide to eject you then you will lose your game? ie:

All title, ownership rights and intellectual property rights in and to the Software and any and all copies thereof are owned by Valve and/or its licensors.


I also read about harsh reactions about banning of accounts, and that program is a bit spyware? ie. so looks around your pc without your say so - which isnt a problem, but I hate it when programs do such things.

Has anyone got any thoughts of steam? what do you think of it?

bozo64r

bozo64r avatar
Level badge Miltaguey (15)
Posted 12 years ago.

I have only just started using it, it seems to be ok. Although they did have a hacking scare, and the 'hackers' were said to only target people with opver £80,000 in their accounts.

Roguey

Roguey avatar
Level badge Trueguey (22)
Posted 12 years ago.

oh... well I wouldnt have that problem Smile Im still not one who likes to give credit details to a company, as there been enough scares of hackers getting personal information.

bozo64r

bozo64r avatar
Level badge Miltaguey (15)
Posted 12 years ago.

Me neither, although some of my family use Steam, aand they said they trust it. Although I may set up a second bank account for Steam only... so if hackers are in there, I will not be affected too much.

Roguey

Roguey avatar
Level badge Trueguey (22)
Posted 12 years ago.

Good idea m8, although over here they dont hand out bank accounts very easy now. They ask for tons of information, and then decline you. Its basically easier to get some kind-of voucher here and enter that into an account. Okay, you could lose the amount on your account if anything did go wrong, however at-least it would stop at the amount of credit on the account, unlike a card where it could put you in debt. Although can you use paypal for steam?

bozo64r

bozo64r avatar
Level badge Miltaguey (15)
Posted 12 years ago.

Only just noticed you replied. Yes you can use PayPal with Steam.

Oh, and thanks to steam, I finally got all the X games onto one computer! I like the look of my desktop know :P

http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/1213/xgames.png

Roguey

Roguey avatar
Level badge Trueguey (22)
Posted 12 years ago.

neat, its going take me awhile to get them all installed - I got a 10Mbit connection that's got fair usage on it. So ill have to start downloading at night when its not monitored.

SuperResistant

SuperResistant avatar
Level badge Skillguey (7)
Posted 11 years ago.

We hate steam maybe because they forgive us from selling old games we bought in real shop.

And when a big game is released, it's very hard, or sometime impossible to use our game because we can't connect Cry
A spy ? when you see all the informatiosn they collect about you... We can't even deactivate the playing time recording. We are only allowed to pay, to play and to shut up Cry

End 2019 and i am still playing X3AP Smile
SurvivorSue

SurvivorSue avatar
Level badge Fightguey (6)
Posted 11 years ago.

Hi Everyone! This is David Howland again posting on my wife's ticket as the attempts at giving me my own are still failing.
I am one of the posts Roguey was aluding to in his first post, being critical of Steam/DRM and Egosoft. I wish to set out my position, as I am one of the many X players banned from ES's site over this issue.
Firstly I will quibble with the thread question, few people actually hate Steam/DRM and I certainly do not. DRM is a lifestyle choice which can be used or not as each individual decides. I do howevever resent a few things caused by ES deciding to market through DRM ONLY, as follows:-
1. I resent that after ten years of playing X universe games I and thousands of others have been excluded from the X universe future because we cannot or do not want be playing games connected to the internet via a high speed link.
2. I resent that ES who used to lead the way in the games industry for customer care and service, have become so paranoid about their Steam relationship, that anyone wishing to discuss a problem with this problematic part of X games, have to run the risk of being banned from their support site. This is getting worse, I was banned over a year ago and recieved numerous warnings about raising and commenting on Steam problems. My wife got banned this year without any warning or reason being given. The only reason given in reply to her emails was that she was my wife! The only reason ES can get away with this illegal customer care is because they operate on the internet and not in the real world.
3. I resent that aiming for a single DRM market demanding low price, high volume sales the X games seem to be getting smaller and simpler ie. TC had many plots teaching new players about all aspects of the game in AP these were dropped for a single war plot. Rebirth seems to be set in a smaller X universe and will all be viewed from the cockpit of a single player ship, hmmm? This is of course, if the game ever does get launched?
So what do I have against Steam/DRM? First joining DRM means leaving behind any consumer rights, at the door.
On joining Steam with your first game you will be inspected and if they disaprove of you, they will refuse membership and there will be no refund of up to £50 you paid for the game! You may happily join Steam and buy many games, if you then have problems with a game which Steam finds too difficult to deal with, causing a dispute, they will not hesitate to withdraw your membership. You will then be unable to play with your game collection which could be worth hundreds or thousands of pounds, do not expect any financial compensation for this loss! Maybe the internet youth of today are happy to be part of this FRAUDULENT TYRANY, I am not!
Then there is the DRM malware! The exceptions you will have to make to your security software to run it combined with having to be connected to the internet for long periods will make your computer a prime target for hackers and viruses. Of course piracy is the main reason DRM has taken over the games market so the spy malware will refuse to run with certain back-up software and those it will run with, will be limited by it.
Finally I like to use my computer as an independant intelligent machine, having to be connected to the internet all the time reduces it to a glorified telephone?
This is not an exhaustive list of my Steam gripes but is the kernel of the problem. Thank you Roguey for allowing me to post these views which would have got me banned on the Egosoft (SUPPORT?) site!

SurvivorSue

SurvivorSue avatar
Level badge Fightguey (6)
Posted 11 years ago.

Hi everyone, this is Sue taking over my ticket again, from my husband David!
As my husband has put his position briefly on DRM (the FAUDULENT TYRANY), I feel the need to add my view. David has gaming experience from the good old days, before DRM (the FRAUDULENT TYRANY), I did little gaming then so know only a gaming world terrorised by the DRM tyrany! David knows about DRM from watching the gaming world being ruined by being engulfed by the evil FRAUDULENT TYRANY, from what he has read about it and seeing his gaming friends cheated and damaged by it. He has no direct experience of it as he has been far too sensible to get his fingers burnt by DRM directly, yet Steam has still ruined his ten year love of the X universe games, by ES excluding him from playing future X games by marketing through Steam ONLY, also Steam has had him excluded from his beloved ES (support?) site, for the daring to mention problems with the Steam take-over!
I however have been badly mauled by the Steam experience directly, as I too have been excluded from the ES site, merely for being married to David. I am sorry to anyone reading this again who has read it already in the Rogueys Power and Influence thread but for those who have not, it is necessary to include to make sense of this post.
David who has played all the X games and has X3 Reunion and TC installed on the family computer, allowed me to have a go on his game of TC which I enjoyed very much and expressed a wish to have a game of my own. David then told me about AP, and how he would have liked to have bought it for his collection of X3 on the family computer. He however could not, as this would mean installing the Steam Spy/Malware on the family computer. I said that I would buy AP for my use, by installing Steam on my laptop, using the no-Steam download to allow it to run independently, then copy it onto the family computer for my use. This is what happened until tales of woe with Steam!
Yes, I had some difficulties running the game on Steam so I tried to get on the AP forum. The only forum I could access was for a game called Diablo 3. Obviously if you have problems with a game, the system is set up to block your access to the forum for it, allowing you only access to the latest crap game forum that they want to sell you? I then tried their problem solving system. This required using two more passwords, in Steam if you want help a password is required at every level, the same password CANNOT be reused. Obviously this is designed to make getting assistance as difficult and confusing as possible! By the time I was finished with Steam, I had a collection of five passwords to use, God knows how many passwords you need to juggle if you use their system for years? At last I got a question logged and waited six hours for a reply before I had to go to bed after midnight! Over the next month I revisited the problem system many times, without receiving any response before giving up and visting Egosofts forums. I used to think my husband exagerated about tribulations suffered by Steam clients, I now realise he had not told me the half of it! The most annoying quirk of the Steam system was it demanding the original password sent to me in their acceptance email. This was demanded many times, on the pretext that they questioned my membership, as they reckoned I had been using the system on another computer? This was most curious and insulting on two counts:-
1. I have only ever used the Steam system on my laptop?
2. One of the selling points of Steam is that it is supposedly more flexible than disks because you can access your game at any time on any computer? This claim is obviously yet another example of the lies propagated by Steam about its service!
I found Egos site much easier to use and got much good advice, I was half way through a thread on getting the No Steam download to work. I tried to access the site one day to find that I had been banned, I was shocked, no warning or reason had been given? I sent many emails to CBJ over two months demanding a proper explanation. I only received one in reply saying my husband knew why I had been banned and that he would be sending me no further email.
My huband and I are were totally confused at the meaning of this lack of explanation for CBJ's unreasonable and illegal course of action? We can only asume CBJ has gone mad with the strain of defending the indefensable!
On the question of DRM, I and my husband recognise it is a valuable market for developers and certainly do not want ES to end their Steam marketing. All we ask is that firms like ES who have proved themselves capable of servicing a disk market, should continue to do so. By carrying on supplying diverse markets they will benefit from the competition and customer choice of multi-markets. The argument proffered by ES rep.s that they cannot afford runs of disk production, was blown out of the water when they produced disks for the low-profit, give-away game AP and they are now talking about supplying Rebirth disks as they recognise that some clients would take days to load and install the game over a net connection?
As for Steam, I found their system excrutiating and almost impossible to use! Their falsehoods and paranoid security system demanding different passwords at every turn and making the forum for the game the client is interested in, impossible to access, is crazy beyond belief? At the moment DRM is looked upon by most users as something PC gamers have to put up with as there is no none DRM competition. With improvements DRM firms could easily become a service to enhance the gaming experience, if only Steam would make their forums and help service easily accessable and listen and respond to what unhappy clients have to say! However if they continue to make getting help painfully difficult and look at a complaining clients as a problem to be ignored or got rid of, their service will continue to get worse! You and I might well ask how could Steam possibly get worse but if they do not start listening to clients with problems, the Fraudulent Tyrany certainly will?

Roguey

Roguey avatar
Level badge Trueguey (22)
Posted 11 years ago.

I'm not sure what is happening with Davids account, I sent the details way back and only got an reply to an even older email. I also checked it myself, and David should be able to log in on his own account here.

As for steam, I haven't really had any bad experiences with it, well not yet anyway. To honest without steam I wouldn't be able to get x3ap, the shops here don't support PC gaming all that well. They have odd copies of some games, but nothing like the choice that steam offers. No x games here would be on a shelf anymore.

I think it was x3 which used that horrible CD protection called StarForce. I'll much rather use steam that lot of *beep*. StarForce screwed up a lot of people PCs. Does steam really spy on your stuff?

Of course no DRM will ever be great, its there to help protect the developer from pirates. Which happens way too often in PC gaming.

As for Davids banning on the egosoft site, it sounds like they were being too harsh. Although I don't know about the ins and outs there, I have no special rights there. They should be able explain why. The decision about banning you and David wouldn't of came from steam. So don't blame steam for that, it would of have to be done by a egosoft forum staff.

As for forums, there is always this one. We try and help you and David as much as possible.

ThornandSpec

ThornandSpec avatar
Level badge Instruguey (13)
Posted 11 years ago.

Before we enter the firestorm...

Firstly, I'd like to state that I have an extensively used steam, and ALL my hardcore gaming friends use steam, and I have NEVER heard anything like what I've read here. I myself have a library of over twenty games, and play most of them frequently. Steam's primary focus was as Roguey states, to protect the game developers from pirates, most gaming companies have struggles IMMENSELY with piracy, so much that I cannot even express it, many companies have gone under from piracy, and steam has given the gaming community a place to center around and be a fortress for the game makers. So far it has done everything it has set out to do.

As per the Egosoft boards, I dunno what the heck prompted the banning, but I agree, it was wrong and shouldn't have happened. I can't say I understand that end, so I simply won't mention it again, I've never needed to post on help sites because all the information is already posted there by now, so creating new forum posts on their sites is just a bad idea, and might be the source of your bans? I couldn't really see that being the case though.

now to the fireworks...


1. I resent that after ten years of playing X universe games I and thousands of others have been excluded from the X universe future because we cannot or do not want be playing games connected to the internet via a high speed link.
- survivorsue


You weren't excluded, you excluded yourself, if you don't want to use DRM then that's just tough crap. Next!

If you don't have high speed internet then maybe it's time for an upgrade? There's no excuse there. Term

First joining DRM means leaving behind any consumer rights, at the door.
On joining Steam with your first game you will be inspected and if they disaprove of you, they will refuse membership and there will be no refund of up to £50 you paid for the game! You may happily join Steam and buy many games, if you then have problems with a game which Steam finds too difficult to deal with, causing a dispute, they will not hesitate to withdraw your membership. You will then be unable to play with your game collection which could be worth hundreds or thousands of pounds, do not expect any financial compensation for this loss! Maybe the internet youth of today are happy to be part of this FRAUDULENT TYRANY, I am not!
- survivorsue


Never heard of it, never seen it, never had been inspected and even then, what the heck are they looking for? If you pirate games/music/movies, then yea, maybe, but that's the best I can think of, and that's illegal to begin with. Withdraw membership? Why on Earth would you even bother? Keep it and play another day. As for being banned, I have neither heard about it, nor seen it, and I'm hesitant to believe this without proof. The ONLY way I know that you could be banned is if you are caught by the VAC security system for hacking games, steam IS paranoid, and they have the RIGHT to be! They have got millions, if not billions, of dollars flying around their network! If you're caught doing an ILLEGAL action then they will go out of their way to ban your IP, not just your computer, and your account. It's in the user agreement.

All in all, you get what you agree to, there's a user license agreement that is shown right away when you install it! Deal You're complaining about what you agreed to in the first place! Ultimately that's your own fault, so there isn't any "fraud" involved in the equation, just ignorant people who click the "I Agree to the Terms and Conditions" button without a second thought.

The malware aspect falls under this line too, plus I'm more than certain there are programs that block it for you, I could be wrong on this though.


2. One of the selling points of Steam is that it is supposedly more flexible than disks because you can access your game at any time on any computer? This claim is obviously yet another example of the lies propagated by Steam about its service!
- survivorsue


Lies? hardly! I can download steam to any computer in the known world, and as long as I have a wifi connection I can download and play all games connected to my account, yes I may need an internet connection to play my games, but that's hardly a big deal seeing as any computer should maintain an internet connection, this improving world will soon see that wifi will be everywhere and everyone will be connected via said wifi. I'd stake my life on this claim.

I said that I would buy AP for my use, by installing Steam on my laptop, using the no-Steam download to allow it to run independently, then copy it onto the family computer for my use.
- survivorsue


No-steam download? that sounds like piracy to me, I've never heard of a non-steam download for a steam game that was legally allowed.



This required using two more passwords, in Steam if you want help a password is required at every level, the same password CANNOT be reused. Obviously this is designed to make getting assistance as difficult and confusing as possible! By the time I was finished with Steam, I had a collection of five passwords to use, God knows how many passwords you need to juggle if you use their system for years?
- survivorsue


I personally have never bothered with steam help because steam itself isn't responsible for the games on it, steam itself exists for the sole sake of distributing the games, just like a store, and so isn't steam's responsibility. The responsibility falls to the game company whos job is to make sure the game is compatible with steam, thus it is also their responsibility to give help and an FAQ. Any help you would be lucky enough to come by on steam would probably be very generic, do you know how many people they would need that have played nearly every game on steam in order to distribute proper help for ALL their games? the answer is a lot, thus, not steam's business.


He has no direct experience of it as he has been far too sensible to get his fingers burnt by DRM directly, yet Steam has still ruined his ten year love of the X universe games, by ES excluding him from playing future X games by marketing through Steam ONLY, also Steam has had him excluded from his beloved ES (support?) site, for the daring to mention problems with the Steam take-over
- survivorsue


So... his X series experience has been ruined because he doesn't want to use steam? That doesn't make sense, his experience was ruined because he refuses to use Steam in the first place, so if course you can't enjoy it! As for marketing on Steam, the gaming world, and the whole world in general, is converting to a digital look-alike, stores in the real world are disappearing and digital ones are rising to fill the gap, you can now buy your game on steam without ever worrying about it being out of stock or broken.

The best thing I can say to this is that if you refuse to go through with the changes going on in the world and convert to digital that you will be left behind in the gaming community. Undecided sad but true.
Vote



NOW before we're total enemies


I just want to say I DO agree, I miss CDs, no, I LOVE CDs... with a passion, I wish steam had never happened and it took forever for me to warm up to the idea of steam. I caused plenty of issues with our slow home computer because its were above what our home pc offered requirements, my mom was pissed! I wish we could go back to disks, but piracy guarantees that won't be happening until there's a gaming company that doesn't work for a profit (which would be freaking epic). The game companies sacrificed the consumer's rights because the consumer was abusing the ones they had, so they fixed it, we forced them into a corner, and they bit us.

I'm not trying to be spiteful, just making my argument, sorry Angel

If my mission goal was pissing off the entire ATF fleet, then consider it a success!
Kirlack

Kirlack avatar
Level badge Specoguey (14)
Posted 11 years ago.

The only reason I can think of that Sue was banned from the ES boards is that David was already banned when Sue tried to create her account (is that right?) and she uses the same IP address (which ES scan every time you even attempt to log on to the forum). If that is the case then as far as ES are concerned it's just David's attempt to get back onto the forums so his voice can be heard, albeit under a different nick, hence the instant banning and lack of explanation.

This is all supposition on my part, but I really can't see any other reason for CBJ, or any other ES employee, to carry out such an action.

No-steam download? that sounds like piracy to me, I've never heard of a non-steam download for a steam game that was legally allowed.
- ThornandSpec


It's a reference to Ego's 'No-Steam Exe' for AP, allowing players to play AP without having to be connected to Steam. They implemeted it after so many players complained about having to be logged in to Steam in order to play, there's no piracy involved at all.

Madder than a Bastard on fathers day.
My DiDs: Peace(s) of Eight - Way of the Gun - Status: Online, A Xenon DiD
Gomorragh

Gomorragh avatar
Level badge Stickguey (8)
Posted 9 years ago.

Truthfully, after X3 was released as a spaghetti simulator, and then the makers of the missile foundation mod (xtended) were taken on as the modders, i completely up and offed from egosoft, they dont really care anymore, as you can see from the mess that was released next.

As for steam, in the origin, i hated steam for the fact that you bought cd's, installed steam to play, then the game redownloaded, meaning 2 copies of the game at all times if you bought hardcopy versions. Nowadays, its just an ease of use thing. I still dont like steam, but i use it anyway .....

Cmdr Gomorragh - Stares at players, just waiting ......
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