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With the recent development video about the LOD system, it has sparked conversation in the community about the graphics API used on Rebirth (ie. DirectX). DirectX 9 is rather old (Dec 2002) with modern drivers/software dropping support for it. DirectX9 can only be found on XP systems has Windows Vista+ support DirectX 10+. I know this is a old conversation, but we are now 1/2 years later from the original news.
What does this mean? in DirectX 10, there was a big rewrite of DirectX which meant a performance gain up-to 30% over DirectX 9 based gpu's. The new DirectX's force the hardware to support more functions, which leads to better compatibly. It is said that the new DirectX's are easier to write for, meaning quicker releases.
This could also mean that Rebirth is only be 32-bit, limiting the maximum memory size to either 2gb (unless the /3g flag is used). Most modern o/s are ran in 64bit mode, allowing more than 4gb per app, if more-than 4gb of ram in installed. However most new PC's come with 8gb or more.
but... has far as we know... Rebirth will only support DirectX9 and 32 bit (XP era). Rebirth isnt even out yet, however its based on old tech. Do you still this has a problem? Ill thought id open a poll to see what you think.
The poll is open to anyone, so get voting.
Should Rebirth support DirectX 11/64 bit?
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X: Rebirth »
Should Rebirth support DirectX 11/64 bit?
Roguey
Trueguey (22)
Trueguey (22)
Posted 11 years ago.
jaml
Markoguey (10)
Markoguey (10)
Posted 11 years ago.
DX11 + 64!!
i want the game to take full adv of my PC (evga mb. cls srx,2xintel 3820,16gb ram, 2xevga gtx660ti...)
btw. I love new TR
graphics is awesome!!!
i want the game to take full adv of my PC (evga mb. cls srx,2xintel 3820,16gb ram, 2xevga gtx660ti...)
btw. I love new TR
graphics is awesome!!!
I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me...
BarrenEarth
Proguey (12)
Proguey (12)
Posted 11 years ago.
It is an absolute abomination to the future of gaming that a Brand New Game and graphics Engine would be created in 2013 or 2014 that was designed for Windows XP...
This game might be good, but they won't be able to make future games from this engine... It would bankrupt Egosoft.
This game might be good, but they won't be able to make future games from this engine... It would bankrupt Egosoft.
Raptor
Instruguey (13)
Instruguey (13)
Posted 11 years ago.
I hope that Egosoft can 'easily' upgrade their current rebirth engine (however this could take additional time) to support newer DirectX versions and also 64-bit support, as this upgrade would, no doubt, enhance the game performance for almost all machines.
If they still consider backward compatibility for older systems, then the solution would be to keep the current engine along with the upgraded one, like some other developers do. If that still could take much time, then we still hope of that support sooner. Maybe, I don't know, via updates or at least for the next game release?
If they still consider backward compatibility for older systems, then the solution would be to keep the current engine along with the upgraded one, like some other developers do. If that still could take much time, then we still hope of that support sooner. Maybe, I don't know, via updates or at least for the next game release?
It does not matter what we were in the past but what we are now, what we do and what we are going to be, our destiny.
BarrenEarth
Proguey (12)
Proguey (12)
Posted 11 years ago.
CBJ just admitted in the ES forum thread that they misjudged the changing environment of hardware when they started Rebirth but that they are too far to go back and change it now.
Basically, they know they are releasing an outdated game but don't have the time and money to do anything about it. It is very sad, but making bad predictions have sunk small developers before, and will probably be the end of the X series now for them.
Basically, they know they are releasing an outdated game but don't have the time and money to do anything about it. It is very sad, but making bad predictions have sunk small developers before, and will probably be the end of the X series now for them.
Raptor
Instruguey (13)
Instruguey (13)
Posted 11 years ago.
This could also mean that Rebirth is only be 32-bit, limiting the maximum memory size... However most new PC's come with 8gb or more.
- Roguey
- Roguey
32-bit doesn't only limit the memory (and Rebirth doesn't see a problem with that, as they said) but also limit the performance, as 64-bit algorithms are more efficient than 32-bit codes, is that right?
It does not matter what we were in the past but what we are now, what we do and what we are going to be, our destiny.
BarrenEarth
Proguey (12)
Proguey (12)
Posted 11 years ago.
That is right, 4 bit word length vs 8 bit word length means 32 bit has to send twice the "stuff" to get the same info across. In very basic terms.
32 bit also sucks with multi-thread support compared to 64 bit applications.
32 bit also sucks with multi-thread support compared to 64 bit applications.
jaml
Markoguey (10)
Markoguey (10)
Posted 11 years ago.
IMO it is their fault. As we all know projects that has very long delelop time almost always fall.
64bit code gives a huge advantage in multi threading, core and/or multi-cpus systems, if code is optimised and written well you can get even 10-20% overal speed boost with app (becouse of that I know that in latest ego vid optimise-guy lied alot). There is more, in apps that require lot of ram, new hardware manage much faster with long-words and larger data blocks, if f-expl (worst system ever) Windows don't have enough physical mem atm. All of this is really nice "visible" to anyone working with linux. Apps (under 64bit Debian) which was written, compiled and optimised to work as/in 64bit environment are much faster than same 32bit applications. In 64bit apps , data transfer CPU <-> GPU <-> mb RAM / gc RAM is much faster too. Keep in mind that PCI Express interface was designed to work in/as 64bit and new g-cards are capable and designed to take advantage of it. If I remember correctly that was one of the reasons why agp was abandoned.
64bit code gives a huge advantage in multi threading, core and/or multi-cpus systems, if code is optimised and written well you can get even 10-20% overal speed boost with app (becouse of that I know that in latest ego vid optimise-guy lied alot). There is more, in apps that require lot of ram, new hardware manage much faster with long-words and larger data blocks, if f-expl (worst system ever) Windows don't have enough physical mem atm. All of this is really nice "visible" to anyone working with linux. Apps (under 64bit Debian) which was written, compiled and optimised to work as/in 64bit environment are much faster than same 32bit applications. In 64bit apps , data transfer CPU <-> GPU <-> mb RAM / gc RAM is much faster too. Keep in mind that PCI Express interface was designed to work in/as 64bit and new g-cards are capable and designed to take advantage of it. If I remember correctly that was one of the reasons why agp was abandoned.
I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me...
Roguey
Trueguey (22)
Trueguey (22)
Posted 11 years ago.
I did do some research on it and im sorry if I missed anything... like how 64-bit algorithms perform under 32/64 bit operating systems etc.
For me, its kind-of sad; CBJ (from the egosoft forums) basically confirmed a lot of doubt for me:
Basically its took too long to come out, and Egosoft dont have the money/time to modernize the engine behind it. I guess Rebirth should of been here 3 or 4 years ago, which kind-of explains the limbo state of atm (what can they do?). X3AP was basically quick-way to get some much needed money, to refuel Rebirth's development (which has gone way over time/budget now). I guess even 3 or 4 years ago, DirectX9 / 32bit where going out of fashion then (when was Rebirth actually started? 5/6 years ago?). Take multi-core cpus, I had a dual-core cpu like 8 years ago (X2 3800+ o/c), yet no x-games has made use of it... now im running a quad-core.
Whether Rebirth will ever get released is another question, are we basically going to see another 2012 (a news black-out)? I guess it depends on how deep-silver feels about it. I cant blame deep-silver if they are reluctant about releasing the game; space-games can struggle at the best of times... let alone with an engine that's out-of date with most modern day pc's (Win7 x64 bit). The longer it goes on, the less chance I feel we ever see it.
I do hope its not the end for egosoft!
For me, its kind-of sad; CBJ (from the egosoft forums) basically confirmed a lot of doubt for me:
I'm not going to enter into the debate about DX9 vs DX11 because I'm not the "graphics guy", but I will point out that at the time the decision was originally taken as to which to use the hardware landscape was somewhat different. Of course things change over time, and of course we could decide that those changes warranted us revisiting that decision, but doing so would inevitably result in the release date being pushed back. It seems a bit odd to me that some of the people complaining about delays are also those advocating actions that would increase those delays! On the other hand, this is the sort of decision that could be revisited after release.
- CBJ
- CBJ
Basically its took too long to come out, and Egosoft dont have the money/time to modernize the engine behind it. I guess Rebirth should of been here 3 or 4 years ago, which kind-of explains the limbo state of atm (what can they do?). X3AP was basically quick-way to get some much needed money, to refuel Rebirth's development (which has gone way over time/budget now). I guess even 3 or 4 years ago, DirectX9 / 32bit where going out of fashion then (when was Rebirth actually started? 5/6 years ago?). Take multi-core cpus, I had a dual-core cpu like 8 years ago (X2 3800+ o/c), yet no x-games has made use of it... now im running a quad-core.
Whether Rebirth will ever get released is another question, are we basically going to see another 2012 (a news black-out)? I guess it depends on how deep-silver feels about it. I cant blame deep-silver if they are reluctant about releasing the game; space-games can struggle at the best of times... let alone with an engine that's out-of date with most modern day pc's (Win7 x64 bit). The longer it goes on, the less chance I feel we ever see it.
I do hope its not the end for egosoft!
BarrenEarth
Proguey (12)
Proguey (12)
Posted 11 years ago.
Roguey... what CBJ just said now makes a whole lot of sense for the SUPER strict NDA... they know that if word gets out in the tight circles of our game community that this game will be no better than a patch for AP after 5 years of development then their sales will suffer and the game is sunk.
CBJ just said everything I needed to hear, along with the clueless graphics guy in the video to know that I am simply not going to buy this game. I feel a bit deceived.
CBJ just said everything I needed to hear, along with the clueless graphics guy in the video to know that I am simply not going to buy this game. I feel a bit deceived.
Sinxar
Cruguey (18)
Cruguey (18)
Posted 11 years ago.
I vote OpenGL. Not sure what is meant by dropping support for DX 9. Seems like some misinformation is going around. If they are pursuing the cross-platform support then there is no other option than to use OpenGL for modern graphics.
The problem with making x64 programs is they will NOT run in a 32 bit environment. The only reason Windows (and a few Linux distros) works as it does is because it basically has a copy of all the 32 bit *.DLL files that will allow 32 bit programs to run on a x64 system. Just take a look at most Linux distos that are true x64. This also raises the question of how much RAM will the game actually need? If its x64 only then it will need more than ~3GB of RAM to even function (assuming since it 'has' to be x64). So how much then? 8GB? 16GB? 192GB? Keep in mind this is a game, not a reality simulator.
My point returns to the cross-platform support. They will have to use OpenGL and compile both x86 and x64 versions to reach that goal. They could actually drop x64 support as its use is not widespread. You can claim it is, but just how many programs on your PC are true x64? I bet very, very few. The only advantage of a Windows x64 system at the moment is it allows better multi-tasking if you have enough RAM. A 32 bit program cannot use more than 4GB of RAM in most cases. It can be enabled by using a hacky method that could at any time be removed from the OS completely.
On the subject of multi-threading. Its not difficult to make use of extra cores on a CPU if you build the program around that functionality. Even Java makes it easy to do this. Keep in mind that the X3 series was released when a dual-core or greater only existed in servers and supercomputers. Making this type of game these days is a trivial matter and I wouldn't be too worried about this aspect of the argument.
I don't get what the rage is about here. Why would you want to force x64 and DX 11 only. It's great that you can ask for those things and be able to play it. Considering how adverse the X community is to change and the internet in general, i'm willing to bet money that most X fans are still using XP on their old 3GHz P4 with a GFX card that barely has support for DX 9. Not trying to be mean but just look at the community overall. Steam, one of the best services in recent memory has so much rage directed at it by the X community. Most of it is misinformation and resistance to change. These are the people Egosoft has to please. Not us that use modern technology and services.
The problem with making x64 programs is they will NOT run in a 32 bit environment. The only reason Windows (and a few Linux distros) works as it does is because it basically has a copy of all the 32 bit *.DLL files that will allow 32 bit programs to run on a x64 system. Just take a look at most Linux distos that are true x64. This also raises the question of how much RAM will the game actually need? If its x64 only then it will need more than ~3GB of RAM to even function (assuming since it 'has' to be x64). So how much then? 8GB? 16GB? 192GB? Keep in mind this is a game, not a reality simulator.
My point returns to the cross-platform support. They will have to use OpenGL and compile both x86 and x64 versions to reach that goal. They could actually drop x64 support as its use is not widespread. You can claim it is, but just how many programs on your PC are true x64? I bet very, very few. The only advantage of a Windows x64 system at the moment is it allows better multi-tasking if you have enough RAM. A 32 bit program cannot use more than 4GB of RAM in most cases. It can be enabled by using a hacky method that could at any time be removed from the OS completely.
On the subject of multi-threading. Its not difficult to make use of extra cores on a CPU if you build the program around that functionality. Even Java makes it easy to do this. Keep in mind that the X3 series was released when a dual-core or greater only existed in servers and supercomputers. Making this type of game these days is a trivial matter and I wouldn't be too worried about this aspect of the argument.
I don't get what the rage is about here. Why would you want to force x64 and DX 11 only. It's great that you can ask for those things and be able to play it. Considering how adverse the X community is to change and the internet in general, i'm willing to bet money that most X fans are still using XP on their old 3GHz P4 with a GFX card that barely has support for DX 9. Not trying to be mean but just look at the community overall. Steam, one of the best services in recent memory has so much rage directed at it by the X community. Most of it is misinformation and resistance to change. These are the people Egosoft has to please. Not us that use modern technology and services.
Roguey
Trueguey (22)
Trueguey (22)
Posted 11 years ago.
kind of a contradiction Sixar, you said most x fans are reluctant to change, yet we are asking for support for up-to date technology such as dx11 and x64. In x era, the x games were quite demanding asking for powerful hardware, now it sounds like its going to be a x3ap with multi core support.. Which is a disappointment after such a long wait.
We were promised a new start - a new engine.. Something many of us have wanted for awhile. Things like 6 turrets have gotten very old now. however. its turning into the another x3ap, with less features.
I can't speak for others, however my hardware is greater over the specs you quoted.. Maybe I'm not the average fan, however steam own hardware report quotes the average PC gamer has windows 7, 64 bit, dual-core, Dx10/11. So not to support the majority user seems ludicrous. If we don't see these technologies on rebirth then it doubtful we ever will. Directx 9, winxp and x32 o/s are old-hat, and could be gone in just a few years. What happens if windows or graphics cards vendors drop directx 9 support completely? Its not even out yet! A big killer would be on steam: does not support windows 7, which could effect up-to 60% of users.
Egosoft should no doubt milk the new engine for as much as they can. However how many fans are willing the fork out money for an game based on old technology, thats due to expiry? This was egosoft's chance to get things right, but its took too long.
Why are people posting.. cos we enjoy the x-games and want to let egosoft how we feel!
ps. just look at the poll results so far!
We were promised a new start - a new engine.. Something many of us have wanted for awhile. Things like 6 turrets have gotten very old now. however. its turning into the another x3ap, with less features.
I can't speak for others, however my hardware is greater over the specs you quoted.. Maybe I'm not the average fan, however steam own hardware report quotes the average PC gamer has windows 7, 64 bit, dual-core, Dx10/11. So not to support the majority user seems ludicrous. If we don't see these technologies on rebirth then it doubtful we ever will. Directx 9, winxp and x32 o/s are old-hat, and could be gone in just a few years. What happens if windows or graphics cards vendors drop directx 9 support completely? Its not even out yet! A big killer would be on steam: does not support windows 7, which could effect up-to 60% of users.
Egosoft should no doubt milk the new engine for as much as they can. However how many fans are willing the fork out money for an game based on old technology, thats due to expiry? This was egosoft's chance to get things right, but its took too long.
Why are people posting.. cos we enjoy the x-games and want to let egosoft how we feel!
ps. just look at the poll results so far!
BarrenEarth
Proguey (12)
Proguey (12)
Posted 11 years ago.
Sinxar... the game is going to be released on Steam.
Steam keeps track of all the HW users have to game using their system
Steam says less than 9% of users are on Windows XP... 55% of users are on 64bit Win 7 and 10% on 64bit Win8. In all, only 30% of users have a 32bit OS on steam.
So you are wrong on so many fronts. Besides, OpenGL sucks for gaming.
@Roguey... users of ATI graphics cards in the 7XXX series already know what it means to have no DirectX9 support. There are numerous threads in ATI, HARD and other gaming forums about 7870's and series graphics cards unable to play DirectX9 games only... and the 8XXX series comes out before Rebirth does.
Steam keeps track of all the HW users have to game using their system
Steam says less than 9% of users are on Windows XP... 55% of users are on 64bit Win 7 and 10% on 64bit Win8. In all, only 30% of users have a 32bit OS on steam.
So you are wrong on so many fronts. Besides, OpenGL sucks for gaming.
@Roguey... users of ATI graphics cards in the 7XXX series already know what it means to have no DirectX9 support. There are numerous threads in ATI, HARD and other gaming forums about 7870's and series graphics cards unable to play DirectX9 games only... and the 8XXX series comes out before Rebirth does.
Sinxar
Cruguey (18)
Cruguey (18)
Posted 11 years ago.
kind of a contradiction Sinxar, you said most x fans are reluctant to change, yet we are asking for support for up-to date technology such as dx11 and x64.
ps. just look at the poll results so far!
- Roguey
ps. just look at the poll results so far!
- Roguey
Not a contradiction at all. In fact it proves the point. You have 18 votes out of what? Perhaps a few hundred thousand (or more) unique players that are wanting to see X:R as much as us. Are we talking like the FOX network here where 1 person offended = a million viewers offended? Even the cross section on the official forum is very small, averaging only 500'ish users active. By that logic I could look at one of the hundreds of Steam bash threads and conclude that ALL X3 players have uninstalled steam and only use the NoSteam exe (yes they exist for TC also, just have to dig deep).
Going by the Steam hardware survey is not a valid argument here. Do all those millions people play the X games? If they do then there is no excuse for the delay on X:R because at $20 a pop (for X3:TC + X3:AP) they should be rolling in the cash.
Don't get me wrong, I am in favor of new engines being used, but alienating a large majority of loyal fans just to make the game look pretty is not a smart move. Or perhaps it is a smart move. Cut off the coat tail and make a new player base. One that embraces new and innovative features instead of hating on everything.
BarrenEarth
Proguey (12)
Proguey (12)
Posted 11 years ago.
Roguey said:kind of a contradiction Sinxar, you said most x fans are reluctant to change, yet we are asking for support for up-to date technology such as dx11 and x64.
ps. just look at the poll results so far!
Not a contradiction at all. In fact it proves the point. You have 18 votes out of what? Perhaps a few hundred thousand (or more) unique players that are wanting to see X:R as much as us. Are we talking like the FOX network here where 1 person offended = a million viewers offended? Even the cross section on the official forum is very small, averaging only 500'ish users active. By that logic I could look at one of the hundreds of Steam bash threads and conclude that ALL X3 players have uninstalled steam and only use the NoSteam exe (yes they exist for TC also, just have to dig deep).
Going by the Steam hardware survey is not a valid argument here. Do all those millions people play the X games? If they do then there is no excuse for the delay on X:R because at $20 a pop (for X3:TC + X3:AP) they should be rolling in the cash.
Don't get me wrong, I am in favor of new engines being used, but alienating a large majority of loyal fans just to make the game look pretty is not a smart move. Or perhaps it is a smart move. Cut off the coat tail and make a new player base. One that embraces new and innovative features instead of hating on everything.
- Sinxar
ps. just look at the poll results so far!
Not a contradiction at all. In fact it proves the point. You have 18 votes out of what? Perhaps a few hundred thousand (or more) unique players that are wanting to see X:R as much as us. Are we talking like the FOX network here where 1 person offended = a million viewers offended? Even the cross section on the official forum is very small, averaging only 500'ish users active. By that logic I could look at one of the hundreds of Steam bash threads and conclude that ALL X3 players have uninstalled steam and only use the NoSteam exe (yes they exist for TC also, just have to dig deep).
Going by the Steam hardware survey is not a valid argument here. Do all those millions people play the X games? If they do then there is no excuse for the delay on X:R because at $20 a pop (for X3:TC + X3:AP) they should be rolling in the cash.
Don't get me wrong, I am in favor of new engines being used, but alienating a large majority of loyal fans just to make the game look pretty is not a smart move. Or perhaps it is a smart move. Cut off the coat tail and make a new player base. One that embraces new and innovative features instead of hating on everything.
- Sinxar
Steam HW stats are the ONLY effective poll of hardware for X3:AP users since that is what they used to release Albion Prelude... so yeah, X game users are not playing on XP or on DirectX9 only video cards
Sinxar
Cruguey (18)
Cruguey (18)
Posted 11 years ago.
Ah ok. I see what this is. I'm always wrong no matter how obvious the truth is. It is funny though to see people talk about things like DirectX and have no knowledge of how it works. Saying "OpenGL sucks for gaming" shows that you have no idea what you are talking about and are just going by other clueless forum users postings.
I'll come back when you learn the facts. Otherwise its pointless to even talk about it because there is no truth involved. Just assumptions.
I'll come back when you learn the facts. Otherwise its pointless to even talk about it because there is no truth involved. Just assumptions.
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